One of my favorite blogs is T4G which is where four well known preachers from four different reformed denominations and flavors dialog with one another in love, honest disagreement and at the same time unity in the Gospel. The participants are,
Mark Dever Capital Hill Baptist Church and 9 Marks Ministry.
Ligon Duncan First Presbyterian Church.
C.J. Mahaney Sovereign Grace Ministries
Albert Mohler The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
While these four men all minister in different ways and have different theological beliefs to each other they are agreed on the centrality of the Cross and it is on this they are united and because they do recognise this about each other are able to call each other brother and dialog and listen to what it really is each other is saying.
Particularly I have found the way they have and find unity with C.J. Mahaney who labels himself a Reformed Charismatic, where the others come from a more cessationist background very encouraging. While I myself do not consider myself reformed in the way of totally agreeing with T.U.L.I.P , and lean more towards Pentecostal Theology and practice there is much I do agree with them regarding the centrality of the Cross.
One of the things I have normally found though is that most reformed preachers tend to pull down any Pentecostal / Charismatic preaching and theology with polemic and rhetorical arguments that really have nothing to do with what has been really said. And I find this extremely discouraging.
Take for example this You Tube video clip of Mark Driscolls critique of Joel Osteen. I think this is a classic example of someone preaching about an issue and critiquing / comparing it to something someone else did not actually say. Now I have to say I’m not a huge fan of Joel Osteen and have never read his books, or watched his programs. I have read one of his book reviews by Michael Horton, which I found to be a honest critique.
However in Marks sermon I think he speaking against something Joel is not saying.
For example,
- Joel speaks about this by saying you might have a bank load of money, but what about your family life if it sucks…what are you going to do about it?
- The same goes with relationships you might have with other people at work…
- What is your attitude going to be if your bank account is Zilch towards God…
- Are you going to worry or are you going to give it to God.
Mark strips him apart by using Jesus as the example of having bad relationships with his family, community etc. Mark is totally correct about what he says about Christ, you will hear no disagreement with me there. And the context is that yes we will be persecuted and should expect it when it comes to preaching the good news about the kingdom.
Gods word commands us to live peaceably with all men as far is as possible with us, it gives us principals and guidelines to be Godly fathers, husbands, wives, mothers children and how to live in society. Therefore what O’steen was saying has some Scriptural merit.
Mark talks about the pain of the cross, about the level of anxiety that Jesus faced being so much that he cried tears of blood. Again this is true, Gods word also tells us to cast all our anxieties onto the Lord for He cares for us, and in other places about the peace of God beyond all comprehension filling our minds and so again I find what Joel said about not worrying did have Scriptural support, even if he did not actually quote the scripture and verse.
- Now Marks concerns about the gospel Osteen preaches are most likely very very true, and to be taken on board, but it is important that the examples we use are truly relevant to the critique we make.
On another forum we have been discussing this very issue and some very important points have been raised. I think it is very important that we actually listen to what it is that someone has said, and not what we think it is they said to make our points.
Another blog / forum that I read often is the Pyromaniacs Team and I must say that I am often in agreement with what they say. And I do agree with what Dan says about not seeking God for any thing that is extra Biblical, though perhaps we both have a different understanding to what Extra Biblical means. Yet they too are guilty of not speaking the truth in love, for their is a level of dishonesty in their posts regarding what people may or may not have asked and their response to it.
Take the example of where I asked Dan a question about whether he would believe a person if they told him they had had a Angelic encounter…..and his response here. He misses what I asked him, and goes into an attack against Christians seeking God for something better than his word….saying that we don’t need more than his word..and then continues into a tirade against charismatics / pentecostals etc… then saying he would doubt them very much about such an encounter.
Personally I find this kind of thing dishonest and think if someone is going to answer a question they need to stick to the question and answer it truthfully. If you read through the comments made to the Pyro post you will see that Dan has not really engaged with others comments about how Angels have helped Christians and in doing so have glorified God, but would rather label every person who had such an encounter as seeking external Biblical truth…whether they were seeking the encounter or not. He then says he would doubt any one who told him they had had an Angelic encounter.
One of the things I found dishonest about his post is that in his polemic against Christians seeking extra Biblical wisdom and not turning to the word of God is that he didn’t turn to the word of God to see what it actually says about Angels.
When we do we will read that though we are not to seek them out, but that God does use them to answer our prayers, such as setting Peter free from jail, telling Cornelius that some one will come and explain the ways of God to him, and that we should be hospitable to strangers because sometimes we might be entertaining angels.
The word of God also warns us that Satan appears as an angel of light and that we are to test the spirits according to the word of God.
Therefore if an Angel came and tried to give us extra biblical information or tells us to do something that was not in keeping with the word of God we should tell it to get nicked in the name of Jesus.
If though we find that we have an encounter with an angel that answers our prayers for provision or protection in any way that is in keeping with the word of God, or one asks us to go to someone to preach the gospel and we do and it bears much fruit then we give glory to God for his leading, provision and guidance.
If great men of God like the T4G group can actually dialog in grace, truth and in love and do it well then we likewise can do the same by being slow to speak and quick to listen to what it is that each person is actually saying.
“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.”
Graig said- “then we likewise can do the same by being slow to speak and quick to listen to what it is that each person is actually saying.”
I quoted the first part of James 1 because your use of this portion of it is inappropriate. The speaking and listening, and the anger, has to do with temptations and trials, and a request for wisdom from God and does not address the relationship issues in discussions of doctrinal divisions between men.
I came out of a Pentecostal/Charismatic background. This kind of misuse of Scripture was rampant everywhere I looked. Now, my questions are these:
Believing in prophetic words as a (P)entecostal, are you ready to say that your doctrine is without error and therefore all other contenders are false? I ask this because, shouldn’t the prophecy being given be a word from God? And, wouldn’t it then make sense, that if there is a disagreement about the meaning of Scripture that you should be asking for wisdom from above about docrine, over against some mundane passing issue or personal revelation? Wouldn’t it make sense to ask God to confirm the understanding of the meaning of the texts, first, before seeking that which will not further the understanding of obscure doctrine, and thus not edify the church wholly? Wouldn’t clear revelation on controversial matters work to greater unity, than some vague or general word to the church? And, really, isn’t that what the real problem was in Corinth, that they were seeking self-benefit, and self-exaltation (I am of Paul, Apollos, Christ) instead of a word which edifies the church and not self, which in turn would necessarily refer back to Paul’s instruction about building with worthless things as opposed to seeking to build with understanding the faith once and for all delivered to the saints; those things which are refined by fire, namely the doctrine of Scripture, so that what we have, we have received, and we all have received, working unity, no one having more or less than another so that no one might boast that he is different?
In all my experience in operating in the charisma, I never once encountered a believer who did not hold to aberrant teaching of one form or another. I enjoy CJ, however, a belief in the charisma would seem, out of 1 Corinthians to include the verification of right doctrine. The question remains, for those who hold to prophecy, words of knowledge, why is Christ still divided among them?
So, putting James in its proper light, let’s say the struggle is to understand doctrine and having to fight for the truth and defend it: “Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” How is it that there are doctrinal divisions, then?
Do Pentecostal/Charismatics hold only truth, and are all others pretenders? And out of love, do you tell them that they are in sin by holding to things which are not true? Because, to not tell them leaves them in darkness, to not rebuke and correct, is an act of hate, not love.
Those who claim to have the greater gifts, like prophecy, should be above reproach when it comes to the doctrine of the faith, unless, what they are seeking is not the higher ground, but a narcissistic, lowest common denominator. Why would anyone seek anything other than the correct understanding of doctrine, first of all? And, having once received it, Paul would say, that your obligation is that with which he instructed Timothy. You are to tell them to be silent if they do not bring this doctrine, and if they will not listen, to have nothing to do with them, or you must admit that you do not hold the truth. But, if that is the case, why would you hold onto it at all?
I am sure that John was speaking on behalf of God when he said: “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.” Because, Jesus in his high priestly prayer prayed that the Father would sanctify his church in the truth by his word which truth, that his church would be one of mind as he and the Father are one. How sad it must make him when we claim our differing opinions as truth and divide over the fruit of dry trees as if the Father and the Son are in conflict.
Hey brother,
I agree that it is too easy to make a straw man argument against a guy like Osteen. I was dealing primarily with his lack of Scripture in his “sermons.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3euLlSdy2c&feature=related Also, he preaches out of context when he does preach. This clip (minus subtitles although they may help) will show what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634&feature=related.
i have no problem with other denominations (see emergent) as long as the cross is preached and nothing is added to it (see gift of the holy ghost) to assure one is saved.
I know this is a short response, but my wife is snoring, I mean sleeping, on the couch and Nathanael is in my arms. God bless you, brother.
BTW, how can I pray for you? Email me.
God bless.
G’day Terry,
I agree with your comments and know that you don’t have trouble with other cross centered denominations which is one of the reasons I enjoy your blogging.
I will email you. Thanks craig